. right now on "ana cabrera reports," cross examination, the first witness back on the stand this morning in donald trump's hush money trial facing the defense for a second day, how

trump's lawyers are looking to shred david pecker's testimony and damage his credibility. plus, what's next after supreme court arguments on presidential immunity, and the prominent republican who now says presidents should not be immune from prosecution. also ahead, dramatic demonstrations continuing on college campuses as pro-palestinian protests lead to hundreds of arrests. good morning, and happy friday. it is 10:00 eastern. i'm ana cabrera reporting from new york. we begin with the breaking news out of a manhattan courtroom where the first witness called in donald trump's hush money case is back on the stand this morning. this time facing questions from trump's attorneys. now, trump's team attempting to poke holes in david pecker's testimony. pecker is the former publisher of the "national enquirer" who has testified that he was involved in efforts to catch and kill stories that could have

hurt trump during the 2016 campaign. nbc's vaughn hillyard is outside the courthouse. also with us, john sale, watergate assistant prosecutor and former federal prosecutor, and jessica roth, also a former federal prosecutor. thank you all for joining us. vaughn, what's happening so far there this morning? >> reporter: right, yesterday on the stand during the cross examination, it was only able to last about one hour before ultimately court ended, and that's where this morning the cross examination from donald trump's defense attorney emil bove continues of david pecker. the focus so far this morning has been on two specific parts, number one, the extent to which hope hicks was involved in that august of 2015 meeting, asked about whether hope hicks was an active participant or spoke during that meeting, david pecker conceded that, no, she did not actively participate or speak during that trump tower meeting that was engaged between

michael cohen, donald trump, and david pecker, only going so far as to say that she was in and out of the room. the second part of donald trump's defense inquiry of david pecker was over the arrangement that they had with him coming out of that august 2015 meeting, specifically as it pertained to stories about the clintons, but also the likes of ben carson, marco rubio and ted cruz, those negative stories that were intended to hurt their campaigns, and the defense team asked david pecker whether they would have run those stories regardless of the relationship that they had struck with donald trump, and pecker, according to our team, lisa rubin inside, said pecker was hesitant in responding, but said yes. this was a long-standing relationship dating back to the '90s that donald trump and david pecker had, and that this was also just par for the course for the way that american media and the "national enquirer"

operated, that they would obviously run negative stories about other republican candidates and the clintons, because, frankly, it was good for their business and it turned cover stories that allowed them to sell papers. >> vaughn, thank you for the update. john, how do you see the defense strategy working here? what are they trying to do? >> i think they're trying to have it both ways. i think they're trying to make nice with david pecker, and they're going to do the obvious. they're going to challenge his memory. they're going to point out that he has a non-prosecution agreement so he has a motive to not go against the prosecution, but i think what they want to do is bring this back to michael cohen as much as they possibly can, and example after example, they're just getting started. for example when david pecker was concerned about violating campaign finance laws, so michael cohen says, oh, don't worry about it, donald trump has jeff sessions, the attorney general in his pocket. well, that was so false, i think they're going to come back and

show not only was jeff sessions the attorney general not in trump's pocket, but they had a terrible relationship and sessions recused himself in the mueller investigation, and one thing after another, i think they're going to try and bring this back to michael cohen and away from david pecker. >> jessica, we've heard so many other names come out in the prosecution's questioning of david pecker, but also in the defense cross where they've got him to talk about all these other stories they did that were not related to trump or stories that they quashed that could have been embarrassing for other famous people, again, not named trump. is the goal there to try to paint this picture that this was all just sort of standard practice? >> yeah, they're trying to diffuse the significance of the fact these stories were killed on behalf of trump by putting them in the context of this being an ongoing practice. they're also specifically trying to diffuse the argument which is necessary to the prosecution's theory of the case that the scheme with respect to karen mcdougal and stormy daniels was

all about helping trump's political campaign, that's the crux of the charge, that this was a scheme to basically disguise unlawful campaign contributions. and so by showing that ami made these essentially -- did these favors for other celebrities, it suggested this was not for trump in particular and not for trump in association with his campaign, and so i think when you see that the defense focusing on hope hicks being in and out, that's to try to get at the idea that she was not there on behalf of the campaign in a significant way. that's where i see them going with trying to bring out inconsistencies about whether hope hicks was present or not. if she was involved in these discussions, that ties it to the campaign in a way that was really important. >> let's back up for a second. hope hicks's a discussion they're having today and her role in any of these potential meetings and conversations that took place at this time. on the other hand, they were talking about people like arnold schwarzenegger and mark wahlberg and tiger woods and others yesterday who have not been

prosecuted for any of the allegations around their deals allegedly with mi, with david pecker's publications. so can you just for our viewers clarify what the line is there in terms of legal versus illegal as it relates to these catch and kill stories and deals that were to silence people? >> well, what makes the payments essentially on behalf of donald trump different from those other payments with respect to other celebrities is that they were made -- at least the ones in 2016 -- in connection with or around, according to the prosecution's theory, his campaign for the purpose of assisting his campaign, and with respect to most of those other celebrities, with the exception of arnold schwarzenegger possibly when he was interested in running for governor of california, those other celebrities were not running for political office. so those schemes with respect to those stories concerning those celebrities, don't implication campaign finance laws. that's what makes them

distinguishable and not really relevant for the prosecution's purposes, although the defense is clearly trying to muddy the waters. >> i want to come back to something you said, john, about how one strategy is to try to sort of poke holes in david pecker's memory or make it look like he doesn't have a really good memory. there was a little bit of back and forth i'll share from the transcript yesterday where trump's attorney bove says, quote, there are things that you did not remember very well that you testified about today that you used other documents to refresh yourself on, correct? pecker answers yes. so clearly the idea, the challenged memory, challenge his credibility, do you think that's effective? >> it's minimally effective. i mean, they're suggesting that the prosecutor refreshed his memory and he's saying what the prosecutor wants, but remember, all these other celebrities you started to think maybe this is the david pecker show. with schwarzenegger, for example. all we know is what was in the tabloid media so we don't have any inside information, but it

surely appeared that part of his motive was to protect his marriage because we saw publicly that when this all came out about his mistress and the child that his marriage broke out. well, i think they're going to be going there and suggesting with trump that there were alternate motives and the people are not able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was to influence the election. >> but that piece was something that the prosecution got out in front of yesterday in its questioning of david pecker and perhaps it will come back around after the cross examination when they have a chance to do the rebuttal of sorts. there's this other part of the transcript, let me read. this was during the direct questioning by the prosecution. the prosecution asks did he, trump, ever say anything to you that made you think that his concern about these stories getting out was for his family rather than for his campaign? pecker, i thought it was for the campaign. prosecution, what makes you say that? pecker, every time we -- the conversations that i had with

michael cohen with respect to both of these stories -- the family was -- his family was never mentioned, and the conversations that i had directly with mr. trump, his family wasn't mentioned. jessica. >> this is a key part of pecker's testimony to shore up the prosecution's theory that these payments that ami made and that michael cohen go to the crux of the case or campaign contributions that exceeded the amounts an individual under law was permitted to donate to a campaign. pecker said we were involved with stories with respect to trump earlier in our association with him before he ran for office, and at those earlier times, trump was concerned about protecting his family, but once it came time to be in the campaign when we were in the campaign, trump's concerns were all about the effect on his campaign prospects, and that's what, again, makes these payments and these stories different from all of those others. >> let's get another update from our vaughn hillyard at the courthouse.

i understand they're talking about a 2015 meeting? >> reporter: you guys were talking about the effort of donald trump's defense team apparently trying to disconnect this from the significance of the fact that it was intended to cover up stories negative to donald trump before the 2016 election here, and as part of this, i just want to let you look at part of the back and forth that is taking place around that august of 2015 meeting to that point. donald trump's defense attorney asked pecker, you testified on tuesday that it was your objective to keep the august 2015 meeting confidential. you said you wanted to keep it, quote, as quiet as possible to which pecker responded, yes. and then bove, donald trump's defense attorney responds, but it actually became public prior to the election that you were doing these things for president trump, to which pecker responds, yes. folks will of course recall that the "wall street journal" published a story about the karen mcdougal arrangement four days before the 2016 election there, and he is currently

working through with pecker that "wall street journal" article that came out just before the election. of course, the jury is hearing this play out in realtime as well. and as part of this, this is making the case through this back and forth between bove and pecker here that this was something that ultimately was openly discussed, that the "enquirer" had supported mr. trump's presidential bid, endorsing him and publishing negative stories about his opponents. what he is establishing here, donald trump's attorney in front of the jury, is the fact that this was already made public before the november election of 2016, the relationship between ami, david pecker and donald trump in an effort to try to keep quiet at least one of the negative stories. of course that negative story was about karen mcdougal explicitly, not about stormy daniels. at the same time here, this is the defense team's efforts to try to make the case that if all

of this was just an intended effort to keep it quiet before the 2016 election, then why would they have continued to try to pay off the likes of stormy daniels and continue to keep this quiet after the 2016 election in 2017 and 2018 as well. >> okay, thank you, vaughn. jon, what do you make of that? >> i think we still have to wait and see. the cross is just beginning, but don't forget, these are all uncharged activities. the state, the people are trying to make this part of an overall conspiracy. remember, it's stormy daniels that this case is all about, and we haven't gotten to that yet. >> right. >> stormy daniels was done by three people, donald trump, michael cohen, and allen weisselberg. where is allen weisselberg? he's not going to testify for the prosecution. >> he's headed back to prison. >> if his testimony would have been favorable, would have corroborated cohen, i can assure

you that the d.a. would have put him on. he and -- and why did they make a deal like that? why did they give him a sweetheart deal for perjury without requiring his cooperation? i think it's because he was not going to say anything incriminating about donald trump. >> everything pecker has said so far is essentially background until we get to the main event, which is the payment to stormy daniels. it's necessary background because we don't have that background in context chlkt the testimony about the deal with stormy daniels is not going to make a lot of sense, so there is a sense in which we're just getting to the most important parts of the story, but i think pecker was an excellent choice for a first witness for the are prosecution because he sets the stage for these other witnesses and corroborates michael cohen in advance and setting up michael cohen spoke with donald trump who was personally involved in some of the other conversations. in other cases cohen would say the boss wants to speak with you, and the trump would call pecker. michael cohen had the authority to speak for trump on other

occasions. >> this is all so fascinating. thank you both so much for being our guide. please stay close as we'll bring more updates from that courthouse throughout the hour to our viewers. plus, does david pecker's testimony give us a clue as to who else will take the stand. are trump's other cases all but dead in the water before november's election. what the supreme court signaled about his presidential immunity argument. and the republican leader who just said presidents should not be immune from prosecution. we're back in 60 seconds. we're back in 60 seconds nothing dims my light like a migraine. with nurtec odt, i found relief. the only migraine medication that helps treat and prevent, all in one. to those with migraine, i see you. for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura and the preventive treatment of episodic migraine in adults. don't take if allergic to nurtec odt. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. it's time we all shine.

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this issue with timing running out for prosecutors to get this case to trial before election day. joining us now nbc news washington correspondent yamiche alcindor who covered those arguments from the court. yamiche, it was so interesting, we brought those arguments live to the viewers, to our radio listeners, to everybody who was tuning in. we are now waiting for a decision from the supreme court. what clues do wech about where this is headed and how it might affect the timing of trump's election interference trial. >> well, of course yesterday was a remarkable day at the supreme court, and what we really heard from the justices was a deeply divided bench. you heard from liberal justices really them expressing that they were worried that if presidents got the sort of blanket immunity that trump was talking about having that the presidency might become a sort of criminal enterprise. then you heard from some conservative justices like sam alito who were concerned political opponents might go after presidents if they weren't given the immunity trump was

talking about. take a listen to what they said. >> will that not lead us into a cycle that destabilizes the functioning of our country as a democracy? >> if a president sells nuclear secrets to a foreign adversary, is that immune? how about if a president orders the military to stage a coup? >> i'm trying to understand what the disincentive is from turning the oval office into, you know, the seat of criminal activity in this country. >> now, during the oral arguments, it sounded like the justices might end up doing a sort of split decision, split ruling here, and it might even go back to the district court, and that would affect timing, which is really critical because of the november election. if we could put it up for folks, we had oral arguments yesterday and after that the supreme court is likely to rule sometime in june. if there is a trial, it would start about three months later, and that trial could take up to 12 weeks. all of that could possibly happen before the november election but if this gets sent

back to the district court, that would be a win for donald trump. he's hoping to delay this until after the november election which means he could possibly have the doj dismiss this if he becomes president again, ana. >> meantime, mitch mcconnell was asked about president trump and this issue of immunity. he's someone who previously signaled the court of law could hold a president accountable. what's he saying now? >> senate minority leader mitch mcconnell is saying that presidents should be held accountable, and he was leaning on the idea that he didn't think that trump and other presidents should have the sort of blanket immunity that he's pushing for. take a listen to what he told our colleague kristen welker. >> what do you think, leader mcconnell? do you think that presidents should be immune from criminal prosecution for actions while they're in office? >> obviously i don't think that, but it's not up to me to make that decision. the president clearly needs some kind of immunity or we'd be in

court all the time. >> what's interesting, of course, is that mitch mcconnell was the senator who essentially ushered in donald trump being found not guilty and being acquitted in that senate trial when he was impeached for his actions on january 6th and trying to overturn the 2020 election. here he is deferring to the supreme court saying they should decide that when there are democrats saying mitch mcconnell could have decided this. a lot there and definitely going to be interesting to watch "meet the press" when we see the rest of that interview. >> thank you so much, yamiche alcindor, for all your great reporting. we've been getting a lot of updates from that manhattan courthouse. our reporting team is standing by with the latest, and after david pecker, who will testify next. plus, he said he signed a cooperation letter with the manhattan d.a., could other witnesses be cooperating as well? more after a short break. don't go away. more after a short break don't go away.

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we are keeping our eyes on that courtroom in lower manhattan where former president trump is in his hush money trial and the former publisher of the "national enquirer" david pecker is in the middle of cross examination. let's go back out to our vaughn hillyard at the courthouse. vaughn, trump's lawyer has been asking pecker about his negotiations with karen mcdougal. what are they getting at? >> reporter: this is all part of the effort here from the defense team to make the case to the jury that this was a long-standing practice on the part of the "national enquirer" to buy up stories and workshop them, make sure to see whether they were true or not, but also to put out other negative stories about other celebrities or politicians medical record to help boost sales because they are a company that is trying to drive publications sales and make money, and when it comes specifically to karen mcdougal,

there is an exchange here where emil bove, donald trump's attorney asks her, quote, when you first learned about this, you understand ms. mcdougal did not want to publish. what she wanted was to restart her career, and ami could help her, to which david pecker responded, yes. what they are trying to lay out is that david pecker was not initially engaging with karen mcdougal in an effort to, you know, keep her from going public because she never intended to actually go public. instead, that they were discussing a payment arrangement in order to help boost her through american media's other publications. then there is also dino the doorman, in just the last few minutes, another subject of conversation. folks will recall he was paid $30,000 by american media to keep quiet his story about an alleged love child, and this exchange, emil bove, he asked pecker, quote, if this story was true, you were going to run it, correct? and pecker responded, yes. bove goes on, and it would make

business sense. you have a fiduciary responsibility to run it, is that correct? pecker responded, yes. and so in this exchange, they're using dino the doorman to suggest that if the "national enquirer" had actually believed it to be a legitimate story that despite donald trump's wishes, that they would have run it because it would have been the best selling publication in the "national enquirer"'s history. >> ana. thank you, don't go too far. let's bring back jon sale and jessica roth, and also joining us political strategist and attorney richard goodstein. thank you all for being here. richard, welcome. >> thank you. >> i'll start with you and get your reaction to what we've been reporting as far as this cross examination involving david pecker. >> yeah, the reason that this is significant from a criminal law standpoint is that when it came to these other catch and kill stories, they weren't talking about pardons afterwards. they weren't talking about being mindful of criminal law violations when it came to hollywood celebrities that they might catch and kill their

stories. they did here. and i think the reason we should expect to hear from stormy daniels is because she can give voice to kind of the frenzy after access hollywood and what it was that was kind of motivating them, which was all about the campaign and nothing about poor melania's feelings, and let's not forget, trump's not going to testify. this will all be unrebutted, whatever she has to say that sleaze in the context of the campaign, that's going to sit out there unrebutted because trump, we know, won't be able to testify because he's just too vulnerable as a witness. >> jon, why do you think they're spending so much time on karen mcdougal, dino the doorman when it's stormy daniels' situation that is so central to the indictment? >> i think like jessica said, they want to set the stage for a conspiracy, but the d.a. has taken the position that this is not about hush money. that's legal. it's not about ndas. that's legal.

it's about interference with an election, but the more we hear about strippers, the more we hear about playboy models, it is about extramarital affairs, and it is about hush money, and i think the jury is going to start saying is this something we really care about? is this a criminal violation. we haven't heard anything yet about how is the stormy daniels transaction booked. that's the underlying crime first before we get to the election interference. haven't had one word about that yet. >> and so jessica, we know david pecker has said he entered this cooperating agreement in 2019 with the manhattan district attorney's office. do you believe other witnesses could also have received these cooperating agreements? >> we don't know yet. that was the first time that was revealed that he personally had a non-prosecution agreement to testify. we already knew that ami had a non-prosecution agreement with federal prosecutors, but we learned that david pecker personally has this non-prosecution agreement with

the d.a.'s office that subjects him to prosecution for perjury, if he perjures himself, but immunizes him from prosecution for his involvement in the schemes he's testifying to. whether people have non-prosecution agreements, i don't see any indication of that. obviously michael cohen has his own history. he does not have a non-prosecution agreement. he never signed up as a cooperator by the u.s. attorney's office or the d.a.'s office. i'm not sure who those other individuals would be who might have that kind of immunity, but we'll have to see because we got that surprise yesterday with respect to pecker. >> so we're only now hearing from witness number one, david pecker. we've been told that there will be potentially, you know, a dozen witnesses for the prosecution to eventually attack the stand. we haven't heard from stormy daniels or michael cohen or hope hicks whose name came up today as we understand it. who do you think, richard, trump would be most fearful of to hear their testimony? >> hope hicks. look, she could conceivably have

been threatened with a conspiracy charge because if the reports are true that she was in on these calls talking about the cover-up and how to book it and so forth, i mean, she was personally vulnerable. we'll find out. but she was like a daughter to donald trump. she traveled everywhere with him. she was on that campaign plane when it was like two of them and maybe kellyanne conway, and she knew where the bodies were buried. she knew the dirt on donald trump. i'd have to imagine if she takes that stand it will be scary and mortifying for trump to sit there knowing that he's muzzled, he can't say anything in response and he doesn't want to offend her, and yet he knows what she knows. that seems to be the biggest risk to him. >> jon, who do you think the next witness is going to be? >> they're going to call anybody who they think can corroborate michael cohen because michael cohen recently, a very respected federal judge judge furman wrote in an order that he thinks

michael cohen may have committed perjury recently. michael cohen, there was never a camera, never a tv show he didn't go on. now, i don't blame the media for that, he was a great find, but i have never seen either as a prosecutor or a defense lawyer, a cooperator go on tv time and time again before they testify just to demonstrate his bias against trump and his desire to make trump go down. i think they're going to devastate michael cohen on cross. >> so you don't think he'll be the next one up, jessica who do you think will be the next one? >> i think if it were me trying the case, i would try to really shore up what david pecker has said so far about the scheme that he was involved. so if hope hicks is available and can really corroborate what david pecker has said thus far and she'd be a strong witness, then i would go to her next. i would lockdown those facts that david pecker has given us and corroborate them and later move into the stormy daniels

part of the story. depends how much time they have left. do you want to end strong before the weekend. it depends how much longer we have of cross of david pecker. how long will be the redirect. if they have only a short window of time, maybe they want to do a short records custodian witness to get that in and done before the weekend and leave david pecker's testimony primarily in the jury's in the mind over the weekend. it depends how long they have to do it, and how strong they think hope hicks might be. >> richard. >> i think if they only have a short period of time and they can put her up there, even if it's not to finish really just to kind of tease, have the jury sit with that over the weekend with some idea about what's to come, i mean, and frankly, trump himself i think starts dissolving even more and gets more unhinged than he already has knowing, oh, my god, she's really going there. she's republican cooperating with this prosecution. he probably until this moment isn't sure, although i'm sure he's put feelers out.

i think once he knows that that's been established, that's a frightening possibility. >> let's hear from trump and how he seems to be -- is internalizing what's happened in the court. this was him just yesterday. >> i tell the truth. i mean, all i can do is tell the truth. >> are you more or less likely, do you think, to take the stand in the manhattan case right now? i know -- >> well, i would have if it's necessary. >> okay, so those are two different clips, obviously. one was yesterday. the other was previously. so jon, we heard him in the first clip, which was earlier -- i don't know if it was this week or last, i'm trying to remember now, it all runs together, but he was saying i absolutely will take the stand. now he's saying if necessary. what does that tell you? >> the decision is his. it's not the lawyer's, but any good lawyer, he's got good lawyers will beg him, yell at him, scream at him, do whatever, do not testify, but he doesn't

have to testify because he'll hold his press conference outside every day, play to the bigger political audience, but he's not testifying. in the mueller investigation, he kept saying i want to talk to them. i really want to talk to them, but my lawyers wouldn't let me. then i'll answer written questions, the clock ran out. he never talked to them. he never attempted to. he's not testifying here. >> richard, trump has often indicated he thinks he's his best messenger, and that he can be convincing to the american people versus his aides or in this case to a jury perhaps. do you think it's possible he would want to testify? >> i think he's smart enough -- look, remember when he said during the campaign, if you take the fifth, it means you're lying, and then he proceeded to take the fifth dozens and dozens of times in a case that was on videotape. we've seen this. so look, i don't know that anybody takes what he says and attaches any weight to it. he's just such a liar and he has

said i don't lie about things, and if you were the prosecution, you could spend days going through all the things we know. talk about covid, about whatever, that he's lied about, and so i just think -- i agree with jon, either he insists overbears his lawyers' will and insists he takes the stand. i don't see that happening. i could see the lawyer base basically saying i'm out. his freedom is at stake here in way that in other contexts when he's tried to assert himself, the stakes haven't been as high as they are here. and he's got not just this case, but others to worry about down the road about whether he would testify there, and again, i just think he just makes -- you know, he faces a perjury charge if he takes the stand, so i just don't see it, notwithstanding his brag doe show about how great a messenger he is. >> please stand by, much more to discuss. we're going to fit in a quick

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. we are back following updates from inside the courtroom of donald trump's hush money trial, and right now trump's attorney emil bove is questioning david pecker about his relationship with trump's former fixer michael cohen. let's go back to the courthouse,

rehema ellis is standing by for us. it seems like the defense is trying to use this line of questioning to damage cohen's reputation. what can you tell us? >> reporter: it really does seem that way, ana. when you take a look at it, pecker's being asked questions about business relationships that michael cohen wants to establish in the future. for example, he's talking about a company named ai, pecker apparently was the chairman, that the chairman of ai did not want cohen in the position. michael cohen apparently had gone looking for a job with him. then the defense is talking about michael cohen was talking about working with mark cuban, and he asked pecker for help, and the defense attorney is saying he asked you to send paparazzi to photograph a meeting between cohen and cuban, is that right? pecker says that's right. he says he thought that would put pressure on president trump. and bove says that's right

again. again, as you were pointing out, it seems very clear here that they're trying to make michael cohen out to be someone who's not as desirable as a business partner as it seems michael cohen would attempt to paint himself in terms of his relationship with donald trump. and, again, that may go to poking holes in the upcoming testimony that's expected to come when michael cohen is called to the witness stand. >> ana. >> rehema ellis, thank you for the update. please keep us posted. jessica, it sure seems like the defense is determined to damage whatever cohen could potentially say and to try to damage the credibility of cohen. he's somebody whose credibility is already very damaged, right? so what does that tell you about how worried they are perhaps about what cohen is going to testify about? >> well, this is what we would expect, which is the prosecution is trying to corroborate michael cohen and shore up his credibility in advance through the testimony of david pecker, and now the defense are trying

to do the opposite, which is they're trying to use this opportunity with pecker, first witness on the stand to poke holes in michael cohen's credibility and so that they can do it now and set the stage for why the jury should believe michael cohen when he himself takes the stand. and they have an opportunity to bring out all the reasons he shouldn't be believe, his bias towards trump, his having committed crimes including lying under oath. they're just trying to sort of set that stage and plant in the jury's mind this idea that cohen is not to be believed before they ever get to cross examining cohen himself. >> jon, if cohen is such a flawed witness, do they need him? >> oh, they need him to prove the crime that's charged. i mean, the crime that's charged, underlying false business records was booked to reimburse him for legal fees, so he's at the center of this, but one of the things that makes david pecker such a good

witness, cooperator, is he admits everything he did wrong and he takes responsibility for it, and he's here just to tell the truth, whereas michael cohen is trying to walk back all of his misdeeds in the past. he pled guilty in federal court, not only to participating in this, he pled guilty to tax evasion, which is a false statement. false statements to banks, lying to congress, and the office, southern district of new york u.s. attorney's office that jessica and i proudly worked in, when he was sentenced, they wrote, the u.s. attorney wrote in the sentencing memo, they said he was convicted of four separate crimes, quote, they each involved deception and were each motivated by personal greed and ambition. that's the u.s. attorney's office in the southern district about michael cohen. the case is about michael cohen and if you don't believe michael cohen, i think the jury has to acquit. >> it will be interesting to hear and see his influence on this jury and how the prosecutor navigates this potential trap i

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we are back with a live look in lower manhattan where defense attorneys are showing jurors a lot of exhibits to break down the agreement between karen mcdougal and the "national enquirer's" david pecker. and back with us now, our panel jon sale, jessica roth, and richard goodstein. richard, we could see prosecutors after the defense is done return to question david pecker again. where do you think they would head with that? >> depends on what they saw as any weaknesses that they hadn't anticipated, kind of trying to shore those up. i actually think that this notion that somehow he forgot some things, i actually don't think that goes to his value to

the prosecution of painting this picture of this pretty substantial conspiracy. again, he can't speak to the records, but he can speak to the backdrop that the jury has to take into account, so i actually think that the redirect could be rather short, and i actually think, again, there would be some incentive for the prosecution, if they could, to get it. whoever the next witness might be, to do something before the weekend starts that lets the jury kind of mainate about something that, again, would help the prosecution's case. >> jessica, let's turn to the gag order because there's still no ruling on that. we had a hearing earlier this week. the prosecution alleges that trump had made at least ten posts that were in this week that the prosecution alleges that trump had made at least ten posts that were in violation of the gag order. and yet this is lingering. why do you think the judge has not ruled yet? >> i imagine the judge is taking some time to think this through carefully. perhaps he's going to issue an

order that includes legal analysis as well as factual findings, maybe a written order, i'm not sure because this could be subject to appeal. if i were him, i would be concerned going into the weekend without having addressed this because there is going to be lots of opportunity over the weekend for trump to continue to post, especially if, for example, hope hicks announced as the next witness, you want to be protective of the witnesses going into that weekend, so they don't get concerned about actually showing up to testify truthfully on monday. also the jurors. trump has tweeted about the jurors and that also would be of grave concern to me as the judge about the potential for there being more posts that would make jurors reluctant to come back to court to fulfill their duty on monday. i imagine he's being careful, taking his time to write something that is well reasoned and distinguishes among the different posts if necessary, so it is not just entirely finding trump in contempt with respect to every time the government

sought it so it will hold up on appeal. >> as we discussed, such an unprecedented situation, so unusual to be in this situation. the gag order, a former president, a candidate for the presidency, again, and yet the district attorney's office is alleging that trump is still violating this gag order, even since that hearing, including what he said about david pecker yesterday before court. take a listen. >> what have you thought of david pecker's testimony so far? when is the last time you've spoken to him. >> he's been very nice. david is a very nice guy. >> john, what we heard there, he's a nice guy, that doesn't sound like an attack of david pecker. is that a violation of the gag order? >> they're holding their ammunition. i think -- >> are they trying to influence david pecker? >> when i was a young watergate prosecutor, i thought we had won the battle that no one is above the law and i thought that that was last in memorial.

now, trump is violating the gag order. i don't think it is a closed question. the difficulty is what is the judge going to do about it and the d.a. said we're not asking for incarceration. so what is the judge going to do? he has to follow the law. if my client did something like that, they would be in jail, i mean, there would be a hearing, handcuffs on before they ever have a hearing. what the judge is going to do incarceration, i just don't think is a realistic option. it would make trump a martyr. >> and so, politically, what do you think trump wants the judge to do? i mean, trump is trying to use this gag order politically to his benefit, right, richard? and is he trying to egg the judge to try to incarcerate him? >> i can imagine two things happening, neither of which happened yet. one is, i can imagine the judge putting trump on the witness stand and basically reading him the gag order, reading him his statements, and asking him whether he understands the ways

in which what trump has said is violative of the gag order. to basically put the fear of god in him. i think if he was to order some jail time, it would be suspended and prospective and basically but a warning, like, this could get worse, and i'll let the secret service worry about it at the time, once this trial is over. i just think for trump, the problem with all the gag order stuff is, again, it shows his contempt for the rule of law, as we heard from his lawyer yesterday, the supreme court saying he could kill his opponents. i think when joe biden says it is scranton values over mar-a-lago values. he says we have seen people like trump in our lives who look down on us, we're nauseated by people like that, and i think there is a lot of people out there who can relate to that, and i think when trump thumbs his nose at this lawyer, at this judge, and we'll see what the consequences are, i think that reinforces the notion, yeah, i don't want that again for four more years in the white house. >> john, you were asked to at

one point defend trump in these legal troubles that he is embroiled in right now. as you see this hush money trial unfold, do you have any regrets in turning him down? >> well, i was just not able to do it at the time. so, i don't look back. but sorry to keep coming back to michael cohen, but he's a defense lawyer's dream to examine. i would love to jump in, in my dreams, and cross-examine michael cohen. i don't have any regrets. i think now trump has good lawyers. and i think what -- the biggest challenge is the whole world is watching this case. and i think we all want is for trump to get a fair trial, no matter what we think of him. if he gets a fair trial, if he's found guilty, he'll be held accountable. if he's found not guilty, earning way our system works. >> he's trying to campaign, even though he's stuck inside the courtroom, he's talking about the possibility of having a big rally at madison square garden.

he does have the day off on wednesdays. typically, for this court. what do you think of that strategy, richard? >> he talked about a rally in madison square garden in february. again, i don't know who of us should assign weight to anything that donald trump says. just like he said some weeks ago, he was for sure going to testify. and now we know he's going to use this excuse, if necessary, his lawyer had advised him it is not, which is nonsense. i think he doesn't have any rallies this past wednesday. right? and so for all his talk about, you know, his needing to -- being taken away from the campaign trail, i think it doesn't ring true. >> well, everybody, i appreciate the conversation. there is all more questions to ask and i would love to get all your thoughts as we continue. thank you for being here with us today. let's continue the conversation another day. john sale, jessica roth, richard goodsteen. that's going to do it for us on this busy newsweek. have a wonderful weekend.

we'll see you back here monday, same time, same place. i'm ana cabrera reporting from new york. jose diaz-balart picks up our coverage right after this. jose diaz-balart picks up our coverage right after this. ♪ upbeat music ♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ (woman) ugh, of course it stops loading at the best part. (tony hale) you need verizon. get their crazy powerful network out here, ♪♪ and get six months of disney bundle on them! (vo) stream with six months of disney bundle on us. and watch it all on the new samsung galaxy s24+, also on us. only on verizon.

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